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Freshwater Aquaria - Freshwater aquaria in general.
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Posted by NetMax on March 10, 2005, 7:33 pm
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> >Note that you can easily kill a fish by taking it out of really bad
> >water
>>(ie: high DOCs, high NO3) and plunk them into perfect water (clean,
>>warm,
>>as acidic as they like it etc). Within a certain range, water shock is
>>more lethal than absolute parameters.
>
> The effect of this has to be seen to be believed and it happener here
> quite recently. A neighbor of mine with a, um, "suboptimal" 150
> gallon tank asked me to fish-sit his cichlids for a couple of
> months while he basically rebuilt his house. He brought them over
> and put them in a new tank set up with fresh water, the same stuff
> my killifish and freshwater shrimp thrive in. Within minutes half
> of them were dead and the other half gasping at the surface. He
> was calling the shots here and did not believe in a slow transition
> and claims I have bad water. Odd, it's been fine for the 7 years I've
> lived
> here for all sorts of aquatic life from the microscopic size and up.
>
> JJ Scheel explains it best I think in _Rivulins of the old world_
> where he takes the seemingly heretic stance that pH and temperature
> (within a fee degrees) to not matter a bit; that is you can dump
> a fish from water with a pH of 7.5 into a tank of day pH 6.5 with
> no ill effects. Or, you can move a fish from soft water to hard water
> with impunity. But woe betide anybody who moves a fish from hard
> water to soft water, the osmotic shock causes the gill membranes
> to quite literally burst, hence the death in this case and gasping
> at the surface.
>
> That's what happened in the case of my neighbor. Although my water
> is quite hard, his is even moreso as he topped it up rather than
> changed it and there was over a years accumulation of who knows
> what in there. No measurement were made but dollars to donus he
> had way more stuff dissolved in his water than mine. The fish
> that survived were fine - until he decided to add, without
> quarentine, another fish which brought in some awful disease
> that wiped out all but two. Needless to say I was very carefull
> that not a drop of water from his tank here ever entered min;
> nets and equipment were sterilized and so on...
>
> --
> Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
> http://www.mbz.org | Mercedes Mailing lists: http://lists.mbz.org
> 633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | Killies, killi.net, Crypts, aquaria.net
> 1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Old wristwatches http://watches.list.mbz.org
Regarding the transition from hard water to soft (or the reverse), the
hard to soft is the worst exactly as you have explained. The reverse
(soft to hard) causes some level of respiratory stress for a few days
while the membranes adjust to the harder water. This respiratory
distress will not usually harm them, but in their weakened state, smaller
fish will often succumb to other transition stresses, and are very prone
to nuisance diseases such as Ich. just fyi
--
www.NetMax.tk
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Posted by Richard Sexton on March 10, 2005, 10:37 pm
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>Regarding the transition from hard water to soft (or the reverse), the
>hard to soft is the worst exactly as you have explained. The reverse
>(soft to hard) causes some level of respiratory stress for a few days
I've never seen it. Scheel in his book mentions "no problems" doing
this either. Any chance it could be something else? Ammonia?
--
Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
http://www.mbz.org | Mercedes Mailing lists: http://lists.mbz.org
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | Killies, killi.net, Crypts, aquaria.net
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Old wristwatches http://watches.list.mbz.org
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Posted by NetMax on March 11, 2005, 9:38 pm
Please log in for more thread options > >Regarding the transition from hard water to soft (or the reverse), the
>>hard to soft is the worst exactly as you have explained. The reverse
>>(soft to hard) causes some level of respiratory stress for a few days
>
>
> I've never seen it. Scheel in his book mentions "no problems" doing
> this either. Any chance it could be something else? Ammonia?
While other things could be happening at the same time, the effect has
been documented (my understanding) as being due to the thickness (or was
it pressure?) of the gill membrane's cells, which develop according to
the water's hardness. Whether this particular author observed it or not
is a matter of degree, and the stress he noted is very much the worser of
the two. I became acutely aware of this with my pet shop on soft water,
and my home (and that of many clients) on hard water. The soft to hard
transition was difficult, the hard to soft was more in the disasterous
category. Of course, the magnitude of the effect depends on the
difference in hardness between the source & destination. ymmv
--
www.NetMax.tk
>
> --
> Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
> http://www.mbz.org | Mercedes Mailing lists: http://lists.mbz.org
> 633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | Killies, killi.net, Crypts, aquaria.net
> 1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Old wristwatches http://watches.list.mbz.org
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Posted by Richard Sexton on March 12, 2005, 1:07 am
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>While other things could be happening at the same time, the effect has
>been documented (my understanding) as being due to the thickness (or was
>it pressure?) of the gill membrane's cells, which develop according to
>the water's hardness. Whether this particular author observed it or not
>is a matter of degree, and the stress he noted is very much the worser of
>the two. I became acutely aware of this with my pet shop on soft water,
>and my home (and that of many clients) on hard water. The soft to hard
>transition was difficult, the hard to soft was more in the disasterous
>category. Of course, the magnitude of the effect depends on the
>difference in hardness between the source & destination. ymmv
Yeah, first you have to rule out other things but here's what
Scheel said in _ROTOW_ (P 24-25): "Thus, some of us have to use different
sorts of water for our killifishes butthis does not represent
any serious problem.
If you move rivuline individuals from a water containing much
dissolved mineral matter to water containing little such matter,
these individuals probably will soon be swimming at the surface
and they soon die. If you inspect the gills under a microscope you
will realize the reason for this. You will find the gills completely
ruined. The many brittle cells of the gills burst shortly after the
individuals had been placed in the water of low salinity because
of the large differences in osmotic pressures. If fished are moved
from water containing little dissolved mineral matter towater containing
much such matter nothing will usually happen."
Then on P26: "Differencesin pH values, even from 5.0 to
8.0 have not produced any harm when individuals are suddenly moved
from one type of water to the other."
(Ref: Scheel, Col J.J., Rivulins of the Old World, TFH Press, 1968)
In the face of contradictory anecdotal evidence I would want to
ruls out all other factores first before I claimed moving
fish from soft to hard water was problematic.
As an aside, I found Scheels grandson who knew "grandad kept fish"
but was totally unaware he was one of the top dozen aquarist
in hs day and the most respected killi gu in his day; in his
20 years keeping these fish he contributed more to our knowledge
of them than, arguably perhaps, the total of all killi hobbyists
since then.
The first (?) fish specialty society was the American Killifish
Association in 1961 and back then it was nothing more than
people exchanging letters. Scheel began sending out letters
to a handful (?) of other "killifans" in the 1950s then stopped
to compile all his work into a book - ROTOW - but had set the
stage for a "virtual", that is, "mail in" aquarium/fish society.
His original letters have been preserved through time and I
coaxed some old family photos from his grandson to annotate them
and you can see them here:
http://new.killi.net/articles/by_Author/Scheel/
--
Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
http://www.mbz.org | Mercedes Mailing lists: http://lists.mbz.org
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | Killies, killi.net, Crypts, aquaria.net
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Old wristwatches http://watches.list.mbz.org
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Posted by NetMax on March 12, 2005, 11:55 am
Please log in for more thread options > >While other things could be happening at the same time, the effect has
>>been documented (my understanding) as being due to the thickness (or
>>was
>>it pressure?) of the gill membrane's cells, which develop according to
>>the water's hardness. Whether this particular author observed it or
>>not
>>is a matter of degree, and the stress he noted is very much the worser
>>of
>>the two. I became acutely aware of this with my pet shop on soft
>>water,
>>and my home (and that of many clients) on hard water. The soft to hard
>>transition was difficult, the hard to soft was more in the disasterous
>>category. Of course, the magnitude of the effect depends on the
>>difference in hardness between the source & destination. ymmv
>
> Yeah, first you have to rule out other things but here's what
> Scheel said in _ROTOW_ (P 24-25): "Thus, some of us have to use
> different
> sorts of water for our killifishes butthis does not represent
> any serious problem.
>
> If you move rivuline individuals from a water containing much
> dissolved mineral matter to water containing little such matter,
> these individuals probably will soon be swimming at the surface
> and they soon die. If you inspect the gills under a microscope you
> will realize the reason for this. You will find the gills completely
> ruined. The many brittle cells of the gills burst shortly after the
> individuals had been placed in the water of low salinity because
> of the large differences in osmotic pressures. If fished are moved
> from water containing little dissolved mineral matter towater
> containing
> much such matter nothing will usually happen."
>
> Then on P26: "Differencesin pH values, even from 5.0 to
> 8.0 have not produced any harm when individuals are suddenly moved
> from one type of water to the other."
>
> (Ref: Scheel, Col J.J., Rivulins of the Old World, TFH Press, 1968)
>
> In the face of contradictory anecdotal evidence I would want to
> ruls out all other factores first before I claimed moving
> fish from soft to hard water was problematic.
Actually, I don't see a contradiction. There has been research in the
area of pH which supports the theory that our preoccupation with pH shock
has been greatly exagerated, and the real problem is osmotic shock. What
has muddied the findings of various hobbyists is that water of different
osmotic pressure is typically of different pH, due to the buffering
effect of the carbonates. If the osmotic pressures are comparable, then
I suspect that pH is of considerably less importance than doctrine
suggests.
In regards to the reverse effect (respritory stress during the soft to
hard water transition), I doubt there exists a Killifish which would be
exposed to the water hardness I'm thinking of, so the author would
certainly not have encountered this as a matter of routine, and would
have had to have been conducting specific tests using fish which can
exist in very hard water.
> As an aside, I found Scheels grandson who knew "grandad kept fish"
> but was totally unaware he was one of the top dozen aquarist
> in hs day and the most respected killi gu in his day; in his
> 20 years keeping these fish he contributed more to our knowledge
> of them than, arguably perhaps, the total of all killi hobbyists
> since then.
>
> The first (?) fish specialty society was the American Killifish
> Association in 1961 and back then it was nothing more than
> people exchanging letters. Scheel began sending out letters
> to a handful (?) of other "killifans" in the 1950s then stopped
> to compile all his work into a book - ROTOW - but had set the
> stage for a "virtual", that is, "mail in" aquarium/fish society.
>
> His original letters have been preserved through time and I
> coaxed some old family photos from his grandson to annotate them
> and you can see them here:
>
> http://new.killi.net/articles/by_Author/Scheel/
Thanks for that. In my all too brief occupation of running fish dept.s,
I tried introducing Killis to (or back to) the Ottawa market. There was
a surge of interest but I then left the trade for a different line of
work and I don't know if my successor continued with it. Some of the
fish were stunning, but my challenge was to bring the price down enough
for a wider acceptance.
--
www.NetMax.tk
>
> --
> Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
> http://www.mbz.org | Mercedes Mailing lists: http://lists.mbz.org
> 633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | Killies, killi.net, Crypts, aquaria.net
> 1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Old wristwatches http://watches.list.mbz.org
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> >water
>>(ie: high DOCs, high NO3) and plunk them into perfect water (clean,
>>warm,
>>as acidic as they like it etc). Within a certain range, water shock is
>>more lethal than absolute parameters.