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Posted by Jay Kaner on April 16, 2006, 10:22 am
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> Maaate... you got to consider the types of fish you have and the types
> of fish you want.
Well... i will from now on... ;-)
While it's fair to say that most fish adapt to
> another's ideal conditions if the environment is kept constant, the
> optimum way to keep different species is according to their most ideal
> conditions.
I did get a bit carried away at first. The newness. The choosing of fish
with the kid. The advice off the guy i bought the set up from...
Y'know...
> It is really quite silly even considering adding "warm-water,
> soft-acidic" fish (neon tetras, red-tail sharks etc) to "cold-water,
> hard-alkaline" fish (golfish, live-bearers etc)environments.
A little too late now... But that will be remedied somewhat when i get the
bigger tank.
The guy said it would be ok to buy tropical fish because he'd put the heater
in for the betta. And that's what we did. Obviously now, it's becoming
apparent there's more to it than just buying the prettiest fish and, like i
said, i'll bear that in mind in the future. The main reason for this post
is I don't understand what you mean with the water.
"Warm water, soft-acidic" "Cold water, hard-alkaline" I mean, surely it's
the same water...just warmed up?? Isn't it? Warm or cold, it comes from
the same tap?
> More fish basically means more maintainance. You might get away with
> doing third water change every month with just a couple of guppies, but
> with a small, highly-stocked aquarium, you'd be mad not to do a third
> water change every week, with alternative gravel-syphons one week and
> filter-cleanse in removed aquarium water the other week.
That's not a problem. And now i know it's ok to leave the fish in while i
do this, it makes it even easier!!
> You'd probably also need to add some sort of buffer to the water to
> keep the Ph constant. I always use "marine grit" which helps keep the
> alkalinity high which is how the tap-water is to begin with, and always
> add a bit of salt to keep the water hardened for the live-bearers and
> goldfish and prevent fungals on the fish who prefer softer, more acidic
> water, who are more prone to disease.
>
>
> At the end of the day, it's not really the size of the aquarium which
> matters, so long as the inhabitants all get along reasonably well, or
> have so many opponents they have no choice but to get along. What's
> most important is the AMOUNT OF WATER they are in over what period of
> time. Changing ten percent every day would be highly ideal, or even
> better, a constant trickle-flow replacement like in a natural stream
> Maaate... you got to consider the types of fish you have and the types
> of fish you want.
Well... i will from now on... ;-)
While it's fair to say that most fish adapt to
> another's ideal conditions if the environment is kept constant, the
> optimum way to keep different species is according to their most ideal
> conditions.
I did get a bit carried away at first. The newness. The choosing of fish
with the kid. The advice off the guy i bought the set up from...
Y'know...
> It is really quite silly even considering adding "warm-water,
> soft-acidic" fish (neon tetras, red-tail sharks etc) to "cold-water,
> hard-alkaline" fish (golfish, live-bearers etc)environments.
A little too late now... But that will be remedied somewhat when i get the
bigger tank.
The guy said it would be ok to buy tropical fish because he'd put the heater
in for the betta. And that's what we did. Obviously now, it's becoming
apparent there's more to it than just buying the prettiest fish and, like i
said, i'll bear that in mind in the future. The main reason for this post
is I don't understand what you mean with the water.
"Warm water, soft-acidic" "Cold water, hard-alkaline" I mean, surely it's
the same water...just warmed up?? Isn't it? Warm or cold, it comes from
the same tap?
> More fish basically means more maintainance. You might get away with
> doing third water change every month with just a couple of guppies, but
> with a small, highly-stocked aquarium, you'd be mad not to do a third
> water change every week, with alternative gravel-syphons one week and
> filter-cleanse in removed aquarium water the other week.
That's not a problem. And now i know it's ok to leave the fish in while i
do this, it makes it even easier!!
> You'd probably also need to add some sort of buffer to the water to
> keep the Ph constant. I always use "marine grit" which helps keep the
> alkalinity high which is how the tap-water is to begin with, and always
> add a bit of salt to keep the water hardened for the live-bearers and
> goldfish and prevent fungals on the fish who prefer softer, more acidic
> water, who are more prone to disease.
>
>
> At the end of the day, it's not really the size of the aquarium which
> matters, so long as the inhabitants all get along reasonably well, or
> have so many opponents they have no choice but to get along. What's
> most important is the AMOUNT OF WATER they are in over what period of
> time. Changing ten percent every day would be highly ideal, or even
> better, a constant trickle-flow replacement like in a natural stream
> would be best.... anything which keeps everything CONSTANT, not
> fluctuating from extremely acidic one day, to alkaline the next, to
> over-saturated with wastes and uneaten food another. Minimal feeding,
> regular water-change, and you should be able to fit in an extra 10
> neon-sized fish (though personally I'd go for something more suited to
> your hard-alkaline dominant situation).
How do you know it's an hard- alkaline dominant situation? I mean in all
honesty i've no idea what the water's like. Is there a testing kit to find
out?
> I've kept several hundred neon tetras very succesfully in an aquarium
> that size before, along with a male betta and a few corys and
> bristleys. I would never have thought to put any oxygen-hungry goldfish
> in with them, though.
Like i said, the black moors, goldfish, black widow and betta were already
in the tank together when i bought it
> Get another aquarium if you are serious about
> keeping warm-water soft-acidic type fish.
Yep, that's what i'm going to do as soon as funds permit. Obviously I've a
family to feed, mortgage to pay and bills all fighting for me money.
There's a large record collection somewhere in there too.
And an unwillingness to work overtime unless i really, really, *really* have
to, doesn't help matters...but I will get another tank asap.
When you say "warm water soft-acidic type fish" do you mean, in general, the
'tropical' fish?
Once again, thanks for the advice. It is appreciated.
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Posted by netDenizen on April 16, 2006, 11:01 am
Please log in for more thread options
Jay Kaner wrote:
The main reason for this post
> is I don't understand what you mean with the water.
>
> "Warm water, soft-acidic" "Cold water, hard-alkaline" I mean, surely it's
> the same water...just warmed up?? Isn't it? Warm or cold, it comes from
> the same tap?
>
Pure water such as distilled water is the same everywhere, but in nature
there is always some dissolved material in the water. Commonly there is
dissolved limestone from the soil and rocks water travels over, and this
produces dissolved carbonates or "carbonate hardness". Other dissolved
rocks/minerals such as sulphates (gypsum, anhydrite...) give the water
"general hardness". Then there are dissolved organics, especially in
somewhat swampy environments, that give the water a light brownish tinge
and add acidity.
Tap water varies according to the geology of your area. Currently I'm in
an area of granitic rocks and the tap water is soft. Previously I had a
well that drew water from a limestone aquifer, and that water was very hard.
pH is hydrogen ion concentration (acidity, alkalinity) with pH 7.0 being
"neutral". Soft waters tend to become acidic (pH < 7) due to fish
wastes. "Hard" waters tend to have lots of dissolved carbonate and tend
to be alkaline, pH > 7. For most fresh water aquarium fish a pH of 6.5
to 8 should be ok, and carbonate hardness should be > 50 parts per
million calcium carbonate. There are test kits for all these things; I
use an old Aquarium Pharmaceuticals Inc tap water test kit.
Different fish come from different natural environments so may do better
in specific water chemistry - check fish books such as Baensch's atlas.
Because many fish now come from breeders, they may not have grown up in
water like they'd have in nature, though.
I guess the biggest thing about water chemistry, as for temperature, is
to avoid sudden changes. In addition to the water chemistry I mentioned,
there's dissolved salt, nitrate etc. These things should be at low
levels in tap water but may accumulate in the aquarium, for example by
addition of salt to treat fish illness. Regular partial water changes
should keep your aquarium water similar to your tap water - a good thing.
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Posted by Jay Kaner on April 16, 2006, 12:12 pm
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> Jay Kaner wrote:
> The main reason for this post
>> is I don't understand what you mean with the water.
>>
>> "Warm water, soft-acidic" "Cold water, hard-alkaline" I mean, surely
>> it's the same water...just warmed up?? Isn't it? Warm or cold, it comes
>> from the same tap?
>>
>
> Pure water such as distilled water is the same everywhere, but in nature
> there is always some dissolved material in the water. Commonly there is
> dissolved limestone from the soil and rocks water travels over, and this
> produces dissolved carbonates or "carbonate hardness". Other dissolved
> rocks/minerals such as sulphates (gypsum, anhydrite...) give the water
> "general hardness". Then there are dissolved organics, especially in
> somewhat swampy environments, that give the water a light brownish tinge
> and add acidity.
>
> Tap water varies according to the geology of your area. Currently I'm in
> an area of granitic rocks and the tap water is soft. Previously I had a
> well that drew water from a limestone aquifer, and that water was very
> hard.
>
> pH is hydrogen ion concentration (acidity, alkalinity) with pH 7.0 being
> "neutral". Soft waters tend to become acidic (pH < 7) due to fish wastes.
> "Hard" waters tend to have lots of dissolved carbonate and tend to be
> alkaline, pH > 7. For most fresh water aquarium fish a pH of 6.5 to 8
> should be ok, and carbonate hardness should be > 50 parts per million
> calcium carbonate. There are test kits for all these things; I use an old
> Aquarium Pharmaceuticals Inc tap water test kit.
>
> Different fish come from different natural environments so may do better
> in specific water chemistry - check fish books such as Baensch's atlas.
> Because many fish now come from breeders, they may not have grown up in
> water like they'd have in nature, though.
>
> I guess the biggest thing about water chemistry, as for temperature, is to
> avoid sudden changes. In addition to the water chemistry I mentioned,
> there's dissolved salt, nitrate etc. These things should be at low levels
> in tap water but may accumulate in the aquarium, for example by addition
> of salt to treat fish illness. Regular partial water changes should keep
> your aquarium water similar to your tap water - a good thing.
I can get the testing kits ...and i think i'll get some of the other
testing kits mentioned around and about in some of the other posts in here,
too. That way i'll know what state my water's in.
But what i can't get my head round is this... (I'll cut and paste a couple
of MangroveJacks comments to explain what i mean)
> "It is really quite silly even considering adding "warm-water,
> soft-acidic" fish (neon tetras, red-tail sharks etc) to "cold-water,
> hard-alkaline" fish (goldfish, live-bearers etc)environments"
> "Get another aquarium if you are serious about
> keeping warm-water soft-acidic type fish"
Now, at the moment my tank has a mix of "warm-water,
soft-acidic" type fish (which i'm assuming to mean my 'tropical' fish in
general) and "cold-water, hard-alkaline" type fish. i.e the goldfish, the
orfe and the black moors.
MangorveJack's (and others) advice is to have separate tanks for the two
types of fish, which I am going to do. I am on the lookout for a 4' tank
for the tropical fish, and to keep my 2' tank (minus the heater) for the
goldfish, the orfe and the black moors.
Here's the bit i'm struggling with...
I will have two tanks. And i have two types of fish. A tank for each type
of fish.
But i only have one type of water, the one (whatever type it is?) that comes
out of my tap.
That same tap water will go in both tanks, yet each tank needs different
water for the different types of fish...one soft-acidic and the other one
hard-alkaline. How can that be done when i only have the 'one' type of
water that comes out of my tap??
Do you see what i mean?
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Posted by Gill Passman on April 16, 2006, 12:17 pm
Please log in for more thread options
Jay Kaner wrote:
>
>>Jay Kaner wrote:
>> The main reason for this post
>>
>>>is I don't understand what you mean with the water.
>>>
>>>"Warm water, soft-acidic" "Cold water, hard-alkaline" I mean, surely
>>>it's the same water...just warmed up?? Isn't it? Warm or cold, it comes
>>>from the same tap?
>>>
>>
>>Pure water such as distilled water is the same everywhere, but in nature
>>there is always some dissolved material in the water. Commonly there is
>>dissolved limestone from the soil and rocks water travels over, and this
>>produces dissolved carbonates or "carbonate hardness". Other dissolved
>>rocks/minerals such as sulphates (gypsum, anhydrite...) give the water
>>"general hardness". Then there are dissolved organics, especially in
>>somewhat swampy environments, that give the water a light brownish tinge
>>and add acidity.
>>
>>Tap water varies according to the geology of your area. Currently I'm in
>>an area of granitic rocks and the tap water is soft. Previously I had a
>>well that drew water from a limestone aquifer, and that water was very
>>hard.
>>
>>pH is hydrogen ion concentration (acidity, alkalinity) with pH 7.0 being
>>"neutral". Soft waters tend to become acidic (pH < 7) due to fish wastes.
>>"Hard" waters tend to have lots of dissolved carbonate and tend to be
>>alkaline, pH > 7. For most fresh water aquarium fish a pH of 6.5 to 8
>>should be ok, and carbonate hardness should be > 50 parts per million
>>calcium carbonate. There are test kits for all these things; I use an old
>>Aquarium Pharmaceuticals Inc tap water test kit.
>>
>>Different fish come from different natural environments so may do better
>>in specific water chemistry - check fish books such as Baensch's atlas.
>>Because many fish now come from breeders, they may not have grown up in
>>water like they'd have in nature, though.
>>
>>I guess the biggest thing about water chemistry, as for temperature, is to
>>avoid sudden changes. In addition to the water chemistry I mentioned,
>>there's dissolved salt, nitrate etc. These things should be at low levels
>>in tap water but may accumulate in the aquarium, for example by addition
>>of salt to treat fish illness. Regular partial water changes should keep
>>your aquarium water similar to your tap water - a good thing.
>
>
> I can get the testing kits ...and i think i'll get some of the other
> testing kits mentioned around and about in some of the other posts in here,
> too. That way i'll know what state my water's in.
>
> But what i can't get my head round is this... (I'll cut and paste a couple
> of MangroveJacks comments to explain what i mean)
>
>
>>"It is really quite silly even considering adding "warm-water,
>>soft-acidic" fish (neon tetras, red-tail sharks etc) to "cold-water,
>>hard-alkaline" fish (goldfish, live-bearers etc)environments"
>
>
>>"Get another aquarium if you are serious about
>>keeping warm-water soft-acidic type fish"
>
>
> Now, at the moment my tank has a mix of "warm-water,
> soft-acidic" type fish (which i'm assuming to mean my 'tropical' fish in
> general) and "cold-water, hard-alkaline" type fish. i.e the goldfish, the
> orfe and the black moors.
>
> MangorveJack's (and others) advice is to have separate tanks for the two
> types of fish, which I am going to do. I am on the lookout for a 4' tank
> for the tropical fish, and to keep my 2' tank (minus the heater) for the
> goldfish, the orfe and the black moors.
>
> Here's the bit i'm struggling with...
>
> I will have two tanks. And i have two types of fish. A tank for each type
> of fish.
>
> But i only have one type of water, the one (whatever type it is?) that comes
> out of my tap.
>
> That same tap water will go in both tanks, yet each tank needs different
> water for the different types of fish...one soft-acidic and the other one
> hard-alkaline. How can that be done when i only have the 'one' type of
> water that comes out of my tap??
>
> Do you see what i mean?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
You only have one type of water from your tap - very true...there are
ways and means of changing hardness/softness but right now I would not
suggest you dabble with it...
Yes...same water - different temperature - warm for the tropicals/cold
for the goldfish....
When it comes to chosing the fish (tropicals) you will need to consider
whether your water is hard or soft...and buy the fish best suited to
your conditions that come out of your tap...
Gill
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Posted by Mister Gardener on April 16, 2006, 11:33 am
Please log in for more thread options
>
>> Maaate... you got to consider the types of fish you have and the types
>> of fish you want.
>
>Well... i will from now on... ;-)
>
>While it's fair to say that most fish adapt to
>> another's ideal conditions if the environment is kept constant, the
>> optimum way to keep different species is according to their most ideal
>> conditions.
>
>I did get a bit carried away at first. The newness. The choosing of fish
>with the kid. The advice off the guy i bought the set up from...
>Y'know...
>
>
>> It is really quite silly even considering adding "warm-water,
>> soft-acidic" fish (neon tetras, red-tail sharks etc) to "cold-water,
>> hard-alkaline" fish (golfish, live-bearers etc)environments.
>
>A little too late now... But that will be remedied somewhat when i get the
>bigger tank.
>
>The guy said it would be ok to buy tropical fish because he'd put the heater
>in for the betta. And that's what we did. Obviously now, it's becoming
>apparent there's more to it than just buying the prettiest fish and, like i
>said, i'll bear that in mind in the future. The main reason for this post
>is I don't understand what you mean with the water.
>
>"Warm water, soft-acidic" "Cold water, hard-alkaline" I mean, surely it's
>the same water...just warmed up?? Isn't it? Warm or cold, it comes from
>the same tap?
>
>> More fish basically means more maintainance. You might get away with
>> doing third water change every month with just a couple of guppies, but
>> with a small, highly-stocked aquarium, you'd be mad not to do a third
>> water change every week, with alternative gravel-syphons one week and
>> filter-cleanse in removed aquarium water the other week.
>
>That's not a problem. And now i know it's ok to leave the fish in while i
>do this, it makes it even easier!!
>
>> You'd probably also need to add some sort of buffer to the water to
>> keep the Ph constant. I always use "marine grit" which helps keep the
>> alkalinity high which is how the tap-water is to begin with, and always
>> add a bit of salt to keep the water hardened for the live-bearers and
>> goldfish and prevent fungals on the fish who prefer softer, more acidic
>> water, who are more prone to disease.
>>
>>
>> At the end of the day, it's not really the size of the aquarium which
>> matters, so long as the inhabitants all get along reasonably well, or
>> have so many opponents they have no choice but to get along. What's
>> most important is the AMOUNT OF WATER they are in over what period of
>> time. Changing ten percent every day would be highly ideal, or even
>> better, a constant trickle-flow replacement like in a natural stream
>> would be best.... anything which keeps everything CONSTANT, not
>> fluctuating from extremely acidic one day, to alkaline the next, to
>> over-saturated with wastes and uneaten food another. Minimal feeding,
>> regular water-change, and you should be able to fit in an extra 10
>> neon-sized fish (though personally I'd go for something more suited to
>> your hard-alkaline dominant situation).
>
>How do you know it's an hard- alkaline dominant situation? I mean in all
>honesty i've no idea what the water's like. Is there a testing kit to find
>out?
>
>> I've kept several hundred neon tetras very succesfully in an aquarium
>> that size before, along with a male betta and a few corys and
>> bristleys. I would never have thought to put any oxygen-hungry goldfish
>> in with them, though.
>
>Like i said, the black moors, goldfish, black widow and betta were already
>in the tank together when i bought it
>
>> Get another aquarium if you are serious about
>> keeping warm-water soft-acidic type fish.
>
>Yep, that's what i'm going to do as soon as funds permit. Obviously I've a
>family to feed, mortgage to pay and bills all fighting for me money.
>There's a large record collection somewhere in there too.
>And an unwillingness to work overtime unless i really, really, *really* have
>to, doesn't help matters...but I will get another tank asap.
>
>When you say "warm water soft-acidic type fish" do you mean, in general, the
>'tropical' fish?
>
>Once again, thanks for the advice. It is appreciated.
>
>
Yes, you need to buy a water testing kit. A kit that measures pH,
Ammonia, Nitrites, Hardness. You can probably get your local pet
retailer to test your water for you - it's good to get a baseline test
on your water pH an Hardness coming out of the tap, as well as
measuring the above in your tanks on a regular basis. A basic test kit
will run you about 20 bucks. And don't accept the pet store's reading
as "your water's fine", but ask him to write down the results of each
test.
Meanwhile, you can find lots to read at The Krib.
-- Mister Gardener
Everything Aquaria & Tropical Fish at The Krib:
http://www.thekrib.com/
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> of fish you want.