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Posted by George on May 2, 2005, 4:17 pm
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>" And looking good in front of you or anyone else is a
> non-sequitur"
>
> I have done nothing but make you look bad and everyone knows it, including
> you.
And I didn't accuse you of doing so, did I?
> That is
> part of the problem with a guy like you can't admit when wrong,
Admit that I'm wrong? You just admitted in another post that I was right.
Quote:
"RO water IS NOT the same as RO/DI water. RO/DI water has a DI canister for
further
filtration. RO water, coming from in lets say average tap water supply, will
have about
5-10 ppm TDS, while RO/DI water will about 0 TDS. Measuring the pH of most home
RO waters
is fine and yes you can believe the kit for most RO, as it still has enough ions
on it."
Hello! That has been my argument all along, since my unit doesn't have a DI
canister.
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Posted by Boomer on May 11, 2005, 3:38 pm
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Hello
"Hello! That has been my argument all along, since my unit doesn't have a DI
canister. "
You have been arguing on the pH of RO/DI units through this discussion. I have
not argued
about your RO pH you are assuming that I am. Here, let me help your read your
own posts
and comments
"Admit that I'm wrong? You just admitted in another post that I was right."
No and yes. You are confused on the difference between RO and RO/DI water
ME
"want to tell some reefers who's RO/DI water is a pH of 8 or 9 that it is a
real value"
YOU
" I know of no one who is using RO water who is getting a pH of 8-9 "
I said RO/DI and NOT RO
YOU
"You said that "You CAN NOT
measure the pH of RO/D water, there is nothing in the water to measure the pH.
The readings are false, until it has some "salts" in it." And I've responded
here that that is simply bonk, since RO water certainly does have something in
it, especially if the source water contains CO2 in solution. Even RO
manufacturers report that the pH of RO water is often low (i.e., 4-5). They do
not say that the readings are false.
You are arguing about the pH of RO and RO/DI water as if they are the same. The
are not
the same. And as if meters or test kits are accurate on their pH measurements.
There are many more
If you want to make a point on a board or NG you better start quoting people
exactly
rather than saying some one said x, y or z.
Some further comments about RO/DI water for you on CO2
The DI has cationic and anionic exchangers, they are H+ and OH-
The OH exchanger/water reacts with CO2 and forms HCO3-, an anion.
The following reactions take place;
H20 + CO2 <----> H2CO3 <---> H+ + HCO3-
And this HCO3- ion then kicks out the OH -and replaces it in the exchanger.
This is how a
OH exchanger removes CO2 from the water. Some of this "OH" exchanged water,
before it
leaves the exchanger, can react with some of the CO2 and produce again HCO3- (
OH- + CO2
<---> HCO3-) kicking out more OH-. This can be a real issue for those that have
certain
types of well water with high CO2, as the anionic exchanger becomes depleted
rather
quickly do to high CO2 in the source water.
The pH of highly purified water is not accurately measured by test kits, or by
pH meters.
There are several different reasons for this, including the fact that highly
purified
water has very little buffering capacity, so its pH is easily changed. Even the
acidity or
basicity of a pH test kit's indicator dye is enough to alter pure water's
measured pH. As
for pH meters, the probes themselves do not function well in the very low ionic
strength
of pure freshwater, and trace impurities on them can swing the pH around quite a
bit.
Boomer
Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum
http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php
WCWing@nospamChartermi.Net
Former US Army Bomb Technician (EOD)
Member; IABTI, NATEODA, WEODF, ISEE & IPS
If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up
:
: >" And looking good in front of you or anyone else is a
: > non-sequitur"
: >
: > I have done nothing but make you look bad and everyone knows it, including
: > you.
:
: And I didn't accuse you of doing so, did I?
:
: > That is
: > part of the problem with a guy like you can't admit when wrong,
:
: Admit that I'm wrong? You just admitted in another post that I was right.
:
: Quote:
:
: "RO water IS NOT the same as RO/DI water. RO/DI water has a DI canister for
: further
: filtration. RO water, coming from in lets say average tap water supply, will
: have about
: 5-10 ppm TDS, while RO/DI water will about 0 TDS. Measuring the pH of most home
: RO waters
: is fine and yes you can believe the kit for most RO, as it still has enough
ions
: on it."
:
: Hello! That has been my argument all along, since my unit doesn't have a DI
: canister.
:
:
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Posted by Boomer on May 1, 2005, 2:16 am
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I could not pass this up
"Then you posted
that RO water has a pH of 9 "
Get your head out of your dam ass
I said
Buy the way YOU may
want to tell some reefers who's RO/DI water is a pH of 8 or 9 that it is a real
value. So,
you need to come to our Chem forum and explain that to Dr. Randy Holmes Farley
who's RO/DI
pH is 9 !!!!!.
that pH is not real, it is a false reading just like others are, be
they 4, 6, 7, 7, 8.2 or what ever
I said it is NOT a real reading
In Dick & Jane terms, just for you. Just because the meter or kit says it is
dose not mean
it is. If your meter says 9 or 5.4, it maybe really 4.7 or 5.9 or it may really
be 5.4.
There is no way of knowing if the reading you get is true, hence a useless
reading.
Special RO/DI sensors prove this when matched against std pH probes. What, no
remarks on
the link I gave on measuring RO water with special RO/DI pH probes.Why the hell
do you
think they make that dam things ? Do you think a chemical lab tech uses a std pH
probe for
his RO water. Same for pH kits.
"I posted the fact that my RO water had a pH reading of 4.5. "
How do you know it is really 4.5...because a kit say so or that RO water often
falls in
that range the kit must be right. That is like saying otter eats insects because
their
stomach is full of them and someone say they never eat insects. Yah know what
George,
their stomachs are full of insects but they never do eat insects, how did that
happen...get the point or are you lost still.
Good buy
--
Boomer
Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum
http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php
WCWing@nospamChartermi.Net
Former US Army Bomb Technician (EOD)
Member; IABTI, NATEODA, WEODF, ISEE & IPS
If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up
:
: > George you just like to get beat on don't you :-)
: >
: > Lets take these apart now
: >
: > "If there is nothing but pure water, then the pH will be 7. Are you saying
: > that
: > everytime one's pH gets close to 7 on the pH scale, we should ask for a
refund
: > from the manufacturer of our probes and pH kits?"
: >
: > THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS ABSOLUTE PURE WATER WITH A pH OF 7. The water that
: > come closest
: > is triple distilled water. Just because a sample of water has a pH 7 does not
: > mean it is
: > pure. My tap water is 7 and comes from a big lake. Where did you come up with
: > this pH 7
: > anyway ? pH is a function of temp, conductivity and mostly its CO2 and Alk.
It
: > goes like
: > this, in Dick & Jane terms CO2 x Alk = pH. They are sometimes referred to as
: > Buch-Park
: > Equations. I have posted on them before here and extensively, do a search.
You
: > can have a
: > pH of 7.00 with a low CO2 and Alk or a pH of 7.00 with a high CO2 and Alk, or
: > for that
: > mater a pH of 6, 8 ,9, pick one. I have them programmed in to my calculator,
: > so when
: > people ask what is my CO2 level if my pH is x and the Alk is y, as you can
not
: > measure CO2
: > in seawater with any test kit, even if they say you can. There are also
tables
: > on the net
: > on CO2 but only FW. B-P Eq. are given in many seawater chemistry books and I
: > have about 10
: > of them. I have talked to the worlds leading expert on the subject, Dr. Frank
: > Milero, look
: > his name up on a search engine. I also have his office phone number.
: >
: > Many test kits are inaccurate. Why do think people come here and to forums
and
: > say this; "
: > I just bought another pH test kit.........MAD.......now I have three and one
: > says pH 8.3,
: > one 8.0 and the other 7.8, which one do I believe. It is a very, very common
: > question
: > George, same for other kits. Where did I say that as the meter/kit approaches
: > pH 7 it is
: > more inaccurate, no where. Quite dreaming things up :-)
: >
:
: I realize that pH kits are innacurate. That is not the issue here. You said
: that pH is not real. If that were the case, then why bother ever measuring it?
:
: > "So you are still insisting that RO water cannot be acidic, that it cannot
: > contain CO2, and that it is all a myth of the pH meters? Hmmm. Some RO
: > manufacturers think that you are full of bullshit:"
: >
: > Where did I say RO water cannot be acidic George, no where, you just made
that
: > up, show me
: > where ....a quote please.Where did I say RO water can not have CO2.
:
: I posted the fact that my RO water had a pH reading of 4.5. Do you remember
: your response, or do I have to juggle your memory? You said that "You CAN NOT
: measure the pH of RO/D water, there is nothing in the water to measure the pH.
: The readings are false, until it has some "salts" in it." And I've responded
: here that that is simply bonk, since RO water certainly does have something in
: it, especially if the source water contains CO2 in solution. Even RO
: manufacturers report that the pH of RO water is often low (i.e., 4-5). They do
: not say that the readings are false. They DO suggest that the reason for this
: is that CO2 in the source water will pass through the membrane, and that
because
: there are no buffers in the water, the water will have a low pH. I've posted
: links to manufacturers web sites where they state this fact. Then you posted
: that RO water has a pH of 9 without ever explaining why this would be if all of
: the "salts" have been removed. If I was getting pH readings of 4.5 on time,
and
: a pH of 9 another time, I would definitely believe that my pH measurements were
: way out of line. This has not been the case. My readings have been very
: consistent, regardless of whether I measure my salt water in my aquarium, the
: water from my tap, or the RO water. I can measure them repeatedly and get
: within 0.2 of the exact same readings every time.
:
: > Quite reading into
: > things they will get you in trouble. It is well known that RO water can be
: > acidic and is
: > the reason behind names like "aggressive water", "reactive water". I never
: > said RO water
: > had a pH that was not acid now did I , please give a quote. If you are going
: > to make
: > claims then quote it. I said a kit or meter can give false readings arcos
the
: > board. The
: > readings are not reliably. So you want to post Spectra Pure's website yeh.
: > Where on that
: > website does it say what the expected pH of RO water is OR WHERE on that
: > website do they
: > tell you about measuring the pH of RO water. I wonder why that is.
: >
: > So George, if you have a RO unit with a TFM, 65 PSI of water pressure, a
: > recovery rate of
: > 4:1 and the tap water has 10 ppm CO2. how much of that CO2 gets through the
: > membrane all
: > or some or what. One of the biggest problems for most with RO/DI water, is
: > that it sits in
: > a container and gets exposed to ambient CO2, which just races into the water
: > and lowers
: > the pH
:
: I can and have taken readings as the water is being made up and still get
: 4.5-5.0.
:
: > "Aeration or de-gassification of RO product water is recommended for removal
: > of
: > carbon dioxide"
: >
: > Well, I would hope so, especially that sitting
: >
: > I said this "RO water has virtually no CO2", that is why when it is exposed
to
: > ambient air
: > the pH drops." That was in error somewhat, as RO water CO2 content, is a
: > function of the
: > tap water CO2 level and how much gets through the membrane. Also, "virtually
: > no CO2" does
: > not mean it can't lower the pH, as it does not take much with about 0
buffers.
:
: Ahem. This is what I said about 20 posts back.
:
: > "All impurities will be rejected, but oxygen (O2) and CO2 that is a gas and
: > smaller than the water molecule, will slip through the reverse osmosis
: > membrane
: > and affect the pH of the product water."
: >
: > Not all of the CO2 and O2 slips by and...... O2 has NO EFFECT on pH
....PERIOD
: >
: > Did you see this on your own link "Bitter/astringent - excess CO2 in RO water
: > lowers pH",
: > which means not all RO has excess CO2
:
: Why the hell would I care if other RO doesn't have excess CO2? And whether
: there is "excess" or not is not an issue. If there are no buffers, but CO2 is
: present, the pH will be low, which is the case with MY unit, and what I've been
: saying all though this thread.
:
: >
: >
: > From George Slusarczuk
: >
: > "Hello Michael,
: >
: > You are absolutely right! Even among chemists it is a very little known
: > fact, that the pH of distilled (and RO) water can not be measured. Let
: > me correct that: It CAN be measured, but the value is meaningless! (That
: > does NOT mean that distilled water has "no pH" -- just that we can not
: > measure it using methods available to a hobbyist -- and that includes
: > "research grade" electronic pH meters!)
:
: http://www.finishing.com/258/08.shtml
:
: Here is some theory- H2O molecules have infinite resistance. It is ions that
: cause solutions to be conductive. Even perfectly pure water has some ions
: because of the equillibrium between H2O, H+ (ions), and OH- (ions). The
: concentration of the ions H+ and OH- in perfect water is 0.0000001 molar at 25º
: C. The pH of this water is exactly 7.
:
:
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> non-sequitur"
>
> I have done nothing but make you look bad and everyone knows it, including
> you.